Is VOX hurting the community dynamic and other assorted flavors?

Comments

Interesting piece.

In my opinion, Vox is an extremely closed shop.
Media can only be inserted by Vox sanctioned providers such as YouTube or Flickr. If this is a mistake can someone set me straight cause I’d like to embed some higher quality encoded video then YouTube.
They allow users to import content from other blogs, but they strip out a lot of the embeds.

I think that Vox is designed to be pretty, secure, and highly controlled.

Opinion Reason #2: Non-Members Can't Post Comments
There is a security aspect to only allowing registered comments. If someone is causing a problem, Vox can shut down their account.
Logging in also makes tracking trouble makers easier.

Follow The Money
My theory is that Six Apart is using Vox as a seeding ground for potential ‘professional Bloggers’ that will pay to use their subscription service.
Vox is here for generating revenue for Six Apart. If Bloggers are interested in being payed, there are other options available both from Six Apart and other companies.

Where's The Vox Community?

Vox has always touted its privacy controls. I think that encouraging cliques is exactly what they are interested in.
That said, the facilities to track comments and the open ‘free for all’ of the Explore tab is great for browsing ‘public’ content (that's how I discovered your peice.)
I’ve been using the Groups extensively since they were established and I’m finding them brilliant for generating communities.

Mmm ... the fact that you can post both to the general public and groups of people is one of the things that makes Vox attractive. Actually, I wish they would follow the example of Multiply, and make it possible to post not only to groups (such as friends, family or public or private groups) but to individuals as well. That feature would make Vox even better.

I don't think this goes against the spirit of community. I also post many things to the general public. Some things a random visitor wouldn't want to see, trust me.

I've been (or am) a member of many, many communities (Multiply, StumbleUpon, Tribe, MySpace, Newsvine, OKCupid, ... to name just a few), and the community spirit on Vox is one of the best I've encountered. I've got my own domain where I host several blogs, but interaction over here at Vox is higher and yes, we all like a bit of feedback or encouragement once in a while.

As for Digg, my personal opinion is that this isn't the most succesful example of a community. I largely prefer Newsvine, which is a much more mature (news) community.

For Vox to be compared with MySpace ... well ... let's say I would consider this to be an insult.

If you want complete control over your blog, and who gets to comment, I suggest you set up your own blog, on your domain. You'd have to pay for all the costs (e.g. hosting), but any income would be yours as well.

There is plenty of room for improvement, but I don't think your critique is entirely justified. Of course, this is just my personal opinion, and yours is just as valid.
had a long day so must admit that i haven't read your post carefully. will do so tomorrow.

but just from skimming, i share a lot of your concerns about some of the policies that Vox has.

i think it really boils down to : Vox is like living in a GATED COMMUNITY. or now that they've added groups, a community of gated communities.

it's a double-edged sword. ultimately it means that Vox will revolve around cliques, rather than being a mass community. can't really say whether that's a good or bad thing, it's just a choice that sixapart has made.

I (respectfully) disagree with a lot of what you said. Just because we are blogging doesn't mean we want the whole world to see. There are people that WANT the whole world to see everything, and they post everything publicly. Fine. There are some people who use this to keep in touch with family & friends and don't want every schmoe in the world to see pictures of their kids or their vacations or whatever and nothing is public. Fine. That's what makes the world go around, everyone has different reasons for doing this. There will always be public posts. I don't get why there is so much talk about "junior high cliques" going around. I don't think it's clique-ish. People are naturally drawn to certain other people for reasons. They join groups that have similar interests. I don't think it's excluding anyone. I have scrolled through the lists of groups a few times and I really haven't seen too many that were listed as private. Cliques would be outright blocking people in my opinion. I just don't see a whole lot of the 'junior high' mentality here. Maybe I am just lucky & have cool neighbors.

I DON'T want any jackass troll on the internet coming in and leaving stupid incoherent obnoxious messages on my page---or worse, spam. If it's THAT important to say, they can join, leave me a comment, or send me a message, and then cancel their account. Otherwise, it's not a friggin life and death situation. That to me is a good thing about Vox. Maybe it could be an individual option in the future---to allow comments from the general public.

I wouldn't mind if they even added one more filter to the who can view this post---all of Vox. That way, anyone in Vox can read it, but the general public can't.

It's all about options, I don't see what the big deal is. Post publicly if you want to, post privately if you don't.

just taking a break from what's looking like an all-nighter...amazingly, ten years into my career, i still pull all-night writing stints like i did in college!

anyway...i think one analogy for how Vox is growing is Usenet. instead of just random content in one huge pool, groups and neighbourhoods lead to the coalescing of users around common interests. eventually, as groups evolve, people become more likely to return to their new community of like-minded people with common interests.

so, as i said, it's not necessarily good or bad. it all depends on why one blogs, and what one hopes to gain from blogging.

I found myself nodding to almost everything Irma said here in comments... of course there are a lot of things we agree with, we're good friends. We do differ, however, in how we view Vox. She's found it a strong, welcoming community, and likes it here. Me, I'm not so sure.

I find it difficult to follow all the Groups I belong to here (I suppose I shouldn't have joined so many), and that's part of the reason I don't spend a lot of time here at Vox. Part of it is also the amount of time I spend over at Newsvine, and there's only so many hours in a day to keep up with everything that's going on.

I do put in a LOT of time at Newsvine, and they pay me 90% of the ad revenue for my column's content, which, admittedly, isn't enough to live on, but I've been averaging around $25/mo. Pay isn't why I do what I do, although in a small way, it does help to keep me somewhat motivated and involved. And I agree with what Irma said about Digg, but I'd like to also add that Digg doesn't really allow you to have a space to write a whole article of original content, so it's a much different kind of community... and yes, I see it as less mature than something like Newsvine (or even Vox as compared to MySpace).

MySpace seems to appeal to people of a much younger demographic. It's their "hang out" place and although I've tried to steer my sons to other places, they don't seem to want to budge... at least, not yet. Maybe it's just my age or whatever (although I don't think so), but I don't have the patience to wade through all the ads, the slow-loading pages, the endless clicks to get anything done, etc. at MySpace.

Any online community is going to have cliques... that's a norm of online communities that I recognize, and it was just as true at Usenet as it is anywhere else. And any of us who used to be there on a regular basis can tell you that Usenet eventually degenerated to the point of nearly unusable when all the spammers invaded... and this was not due to the cliques. Since then, most online communities have put up small hurdles (like registration) to keep that sort of activity at bay (and some methods work better than others). Newsvine has registration and what they call a "Greenhouse" which keeps new users in a sort of limbo until their content begins getting voted up by members of the community. They don't get out of the Greenhouse until they reach a certain threshhold of votes... and that helps more than hurts the community, I think.

As for Vox, I do have a few comments/questions to make...

I don't understand why TypeKey was not implemented here. It would seem a natural fit and people who are not Voxers, but who do have a TypeKey account could easily login to comment. That would help to bring in outside commenters, as well as possibly get new members. And it would give Six Apart another means of booting the abusive commenters, if needed.

I don't understand why (on my Groups page) there isn't an RSS feed for all of the Groups I'm a member of. This would make it much easier for me to follow along with the activity in the Groups I belong to. And when I go to a specific Group page, there is also no RSS feed there either, so I can't even go from Group to Group gathering up RSS feed urls to put in my feedreader. That, to me, is a handicap that Vox needs to overcome. I have little enough time in my day that I don't want to go through pagination to see what's new, and my feedreader could very easily alert me to new content so I wouldn't have to do that.

Well, this comment is already too long and I didn't say everything I wanted to say, but it's a start. :)


Well, re: groups---this is a brand new feature here at Vox, so I'm sure there will be a bit of tweaking going on, I certainly hope so, anyway.

HI Boomr, I'm very new to this blogging thing. I tried to use one before; I think it was just blog.com. I found it to be very awkward and only posted a few times. If friends did not know you had a blog and where to find it, you were virtually lost in the ether. Sooz who has blogged for years was invited to Vox and I followed her. I find the tags, neighborhood, home and its questions of the day a great way to find a community. I don't know anything about the groups yet, although I was invited to join the Indianapolis group. I'm not really interested in groups right now. It is just nice to have a place to post ideas that are easily accessible to vox folks.

I would not want the general public to post to my blog because of the troll factor out there. I was very concerned when I googled for information concerning the cross Michigan trail ride and my blog popped up several times. I would like to limit my blog views to just vox people and not the general publilc. Though I doubt that would offer any protection. If you want to remain private, you don't use a blog.

As for knowing how many people look at my stuff, it would be nice to have a counter available to see that number. I belong to a group of ladies that have been together on line for almost two and half years. We have our own forum and post there almost daily. We are all good girlfriends. We try to answer or comment on each others' posts but find it sometimes to tiring to hit each one everytime. We also have noticed that we visit our forum and read about four times more often than we post. We do have a counter on our forum that tells how many visitors we have had. Also that forum is completely (as much as internet can be) private. A person must be invited in and given access. At first we thought the public had somehow managed to bypass the security because we had so many hits. After a little discussion we realized we stopped by and read much more often then commenting.

I am sure Vox can be improved and I hope they read our comments and suggestions for improvement. Right now though I am still learning and too new to have formed any serious opinions.

Wow, some very interesting responses and povs, although a few of the comments missed a few of the points I had already addressed in the original piece. But this post was so long, I completely understand how that could have happened.

I am a bit surprised at the number of people who seem to prefer "private" and/or friends-style blogging. I love my friends, but I've also had more than enough discussions with them on a myriad of subjects so that I already know how they think, what they believe and what they're interested in.

For me, that could get very old, very quickly.

But what I love about my life is when I have the opportunity to meet new, intelligent people who bring forth new povs, new insights and new experiences that I've never encountered before nor knew someone who had. And I actually want to know people whom I may have absolutely nothing in common with in the everyday of life, even those whom I may completely disagree with on just about any issue.

But maybe that's just me.

Allow me the opportunity to talk about some of my VOX Neighbors, and for those not mentioned, please understand that it's a function of time.

I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading about the cultural experiences from Fuyumi's blog. He incorporates photographs of some exquisitely beautiful parts of Italy, most times in Milan, and the breadth of his social, cultural, artistic interests just makes my visit to his site part travelogue, part student listening to his favorite tenured professor of European History. He personalizes it enough and his passion for so many things is so great that he just makes all that he talks about come alive for me.

Then there's Indy, and what I've learned about the life and tribulations from her about being a High School teacher today in Indiana, a.k.a., Fly-Over Country, has been a wonderfully enlightening and another personal growth experience as well. But when she posts about her love of horses, and the fact that she has her own horse on her own property, well for Big City kids like me I take in every morsel of her descriptions and experiences.

Then there's Christopher, the prosecutor from Singapore. Wow, can this guy articulate his povs. In many a discussion, he's helped me straddle whatever cultural or legal chasm there might be between our two countries to give me insights I would probably never have experienced at this point in my life.

And we can't forget Irma, an American in Belgium and Armchair News, a writer living in Brooklyn, NY, two incredibly gifted women possessing superb writing skills in the very finest of narrative senses. Their humor and ability to look at the absurd, along with the occasionally tasteful self-deprecations, just makes for some great reading.

Then we have the wonderfully creative talents of Matias del Campo's architectural design blog, thinking constantly in the abstract with a green-centric sensibility for the practical, he's just an amazingly gifted person as well to blog with.

I could go on and rave about every one of my VOX Neighbors, but the point is that in any other venue or on any other occasion, I would probably have not had an opportunity to get to know any of these people. But thanks to VOX, I am now afforded that opportunity to enjoy their intelligence, their articulateness, creativity and ability to open up to communicate their life experiences.

But truth be told, they each really bring to my life such a variety of interests that I also do not ever want to miss an opportunity to meet another Fuyami, another Indy, another Christopher or Irma by taking even a moment to set myself apart to be in a group of my own like-minded people.

For some of you, that's probably very important, but for me, it's not important at all.

And allow me to make it totally clear that this is not a criticism of any of you who happen to feel that way about private groups and friends-only blogging, because we all deserve an opportunity to create our own inner and outer circles as we each see fit.

Now, as for the concerns over the inherent "protection" mechanism in place to prevent idiots from posting their garbage on our VOX posts, I can understand that appreciation of the guard at the gate, so to speak. But in turn, the price we each pay for that protection may be too high a price for me.

As a potential solution, I do think the TypeKey suggestion is a very positive one, but SixApart has more than enough competent programmers to create their own identity registration and spam regulators without forcing a visitor to become a blogger just to make a comment. And as I see it, that protection effort isn't really the guard at the gate created expressly for our benefit. Rather, it's strategically helping VOX to develop their membership roll and inures primarily as intended, to the benefit of SixApart . . . we're just the beneficiaries of that protection, kind of just along for the ride.

And finally, as for the money, I was never looking to be paid by VOX, just not wanting to be used by VOX in any way, and most especially not being permitted to create my own forms of revenue is what I was objecting to.

As for going elsewhere, and respectfully contrary to one of the comments, there are blog hosts to turn to where you don't have to pay for a domain name and a host. Blogger is one, but IMHO, thy best name is WordPress, as mentioned in my original post.

But you know, family is one thing, friends are another and it does make me a bit sad to know that so many prefer to more than occasionally cloister themselves away in private discussions or groups. To me, if you're at a party with a house full of guests, and you go off with the only person you know there for the rest of the evening, you've forever lost that opportunity to meet some new and possibly very interesting people.

VOX also has an abundance of some incredibly interesting people, and I would love nothing more than to expand my circle of VOX Neighbors.

But I'm afraid that as these sub-communities and groups continue to grow, those opportunities may become fewer and fewer.

I hope I'm wrong.

And we can't forget Irma, an American in Belgium


Mmm ... an American in Belgium? Try Dutch in Belgium ...

As for going elsewhere, and respectfully contrary to one of the comments, there are blog hosts to turn to where you don't have to pay for a domain name and a host. Blogger is one, but IMHO, thy best name is WordPress, as mentioned in my original post.


Yes, there's WordPress.org but you still don't have total control over your blog. There are things you won't be able to do. You don't have access to the database in which your data are stored for example. You don't have full control over the theme you might want to use. No way they'd allow you to put PHP code into your entries.

I was talking about a situation where you install the blogging application yourself, you make tweaks, you maintain the database etc. This certainly isn't for everyone, but it does give you a lot more control.

And I actually want to know people whom I may have absolutely nothing in common with in the everyday of life, even those whom I may completely disagree with on just about any issue.

What makes you think for example I wouldn't want to? Or what makes you think my group of Vox friends is a homogenous group? I know ... I sound awfully grumpy, but I just don't get it. I don't see how it seems to have to be just one and not the other.

But you know, family is one thing, friends are another and it does make me a bit sad to know that so many prefer to more than occasionally cloister themselves away in private discussions or groups. To me, if you're at a party with a house full of guests, and you go off with the only person you know there for the rest of the evening, you've forever lost that opportunity to meet some new and possibly very interesting people.

You know, for you Vox might be seen as a party with a house full of guests, while for others it's more like a coffee house, or a boudoir.

I think what bothers me most is how you seem to think that people who 'cloister themselves away' are less open minded than those who don't. Some things just aren't suitable for a general audience, as I imagine my private (as in not visible to the entire world) group about bdsm and fetish to be (especially with the rather vague TOS and TOU).

And just how many new people can you meet if you want to go beyond catching just a (superficial or fragmented) glimpse of them? I mean ... I love to meet new people but already I can't keep up, there just aren't enough hours to a day. It's not like I just want to be entertained, I like to interact as well, and I communicate a lot 'behind the screens', like on Gtalk or Skype. Unfortunately I'm always running out of time.

I like your guts, Irma, and I've always enjoyed, appreciated and respected your comments. And you also perfectly illustrate my point about how wonderful non-cloistered [a.k.a., public] VOX Neighbor relationships can be.

And you've got a lot to say that I would love nothing more than to discuss with you right now, but it's about 4:15 a.m. here on the East Coast, and I have a 9 a.m. conference call to be sharp for, so apologies that I can't address all of your points at the moment.

What I will tell you [I just know this will turn into an until-dawn answer], is that when we humans form any kind of a group, that group seems to always be linked by something each member of that group has in common with the other.

That shared interest, to me at least, means homogeneity.

And frankly, I know a ton of political activists from the left and the right, for example, that I can guarantee you if I invited them all to join a group with me that focused exclusively on non-partisan politics, few would take me up on that offer.

Yes, politics is each their shared passion, but like-minded membership, homogeneity, would trump non-partisan politics in this case.

Maybe that's not necessarily the fairest of examples to use, but I'm hallucinating from exhaustion and hope it nevertheless helps to better illustrate my point.

P.S. - Just look to the number of Meet-Ups that have formed for like-minded groups sharing whatever it may be that they each have in common.

P.P.S. - You're a delight and I look forward to your response when I wake from a quick snooze.

[this is good]
This is a very debated posted. I do not have enough time to read it very well right now, so I will have to return later to read more. Without being fully aware of what all has been said back and forth already. I would like to say that, the people that you are going to want to meet for diverse and stimulating thoughts are also going to be wanting the same thing and they are most often going to be posting publicly. Six Apart is constantly updating and improving Vox so expressing feedback helps them to decide what areas need the most work to fit the majority of VOXers. As with anything you can not please everyone all the time, and one person's definition of perfect may be totally different from someone else's; those are factors that influence how Vox is developed.

have to run I will try to read more thoroughly and then maybe comment again.

Thanks for sharing your opinions
just one little comment on a specific point : it's been clear to me from the time i first tried out Vox that the registration requirement is 100% about giving Vox the 'eyeballs' - in terms of registered 'users' - to sell to potential investors. there is no reason why Vox can't implement something like TypeKey that makes it possible for non-registered readers to comment, while protecting against spam.

that's why it was the first thing i thought of when boomr first started this discussion. because it is one thing that Vox really ought to change, because ultimately the policy only benefits them. given the privacy options already available, there is adequate protection against spam here.

of course, since it is their business, sixapart has the right to set whatever policies they want. but surely there must be a way for them to convert comments into useable business metrics, without requiring that anyone who wants to comment must register!

I agree with Irma in that I certainly don't feel "cloistered away" in the least here at Vox--the people that I have marked as "Friends"? I don't actually know any of them in real life (okay, one but she doesn't even use hers). I have 'met' them all here, or over on Cuteoverload.com. My neighborhood expands daily. I do driveby posts--like here--on stuff that interests me on the explore page. Like Irma said...i can barely keep up with all of this. My family knows nothing about this. Seeing how things turn up on Google from Vox kinda freaked me out as far as privacy goes...which is why I don't want to post pictures of myself or my family publicly...etc., etc. I feel like Vox gives me the opportunity to expand my horizons & meet interesting people without exposing me so much to the freaks that are on the internet, as evidenced by some comments I get on my YouTube videos...sheesh, you want a bunch of cretins...
just wanted to put in my 2 cents . . .

at first, i only posted public posts and watched what i wrote about in case big brother was watching. over time i've grown a fantastic little neighborhood, and have moved many of my neighbors into my friends group to start posting some sensitive subjects that i wouldn't want EVERYONE to see (guy troubles, work stuff) but wanted some feedback from these fellow bloggers. now that we have the "neighborhood" filter, i can share these more sensitive subjects with a wider audience. i still do post most items publically because i know my readership extends beyond VOX, and i'm always looking for new neighbors.

so yes. VOX is a neighborhood. but like any housing establishment, there are always people who move in and out of the neighborhood. sometimes they stay for a short while, and realize they don't like where they live. so they move. and other times, they settle down and start a family. it's always growing and changing within itself, and i think that's part of what attracts people to the community. everyone wants to be part of something great. whether or not they ultimately fit in is the question.
My son told me about Vox and suggested it as a way for the family to keep in touch.Several of us joined. Some have never posted anything else, one reads and comments only, he and I have posted quite a bit, but both of us not as much lately because of life, not because of changes Vox has made. He told me in the beginning that Vox was designed so "even your grandmother can use it". And I believe I've seen Vox promoted as a place to keep up with friends and family. Not a place to get your message out to the world!

As for being offended that SixApart makes money from Vox ... ummm, aren't they a business? Isn't that what businesses like to do, make money? I'm really not offended at all by that one.

Maybe it's because I haven't blogged anywhere else, I think this is rather fun. I find new neighbors from their comments on other neighbor's stuff. People add me to their neighborhood. I've found new neighbors in my groups.

I post ALL pictures of my kids for family and friends only. I don't want ANYBODY I don't really know to see them. And, like I say in my profile, the more serious (personal) the subject, the more private the post.

This discussion has been fascinating to me. Thanks to all for posting!
For the record... TypeKey is a product created by Six Apart. They also have LiveJournal, TypePad, Movable Type, and now Vox.
Aine, thank you for helping me further prove SixApart's exceptional internal programming capabilities to create wonderfully effective filters that could easily protect VOXers from unsavory comments or visitors WITHOUT forcing EVERY visitor to join VOX in order to comment . . . but tell me, doesn't that fact also make you wonder why they aren't giving those features to us on VOX? Thanks again for the help. ;-)
Yes, exactly. That's why I said in my first comment in this thread that I didn't understand why they hadn't implemented TypeKey in Vox, since they created both systems and have a technical understanding of how to implement it.
[this is good]
"After reading this second point above, you can then see how dead-on my VOX Neighbor Christopher was with his guess when he said:

i'm guessing that one of the rules you think Vox needs to change is their requirement that only registered users can post comments. i've had a few friends who have visited my blog, but don't comment because they don't want to register.

bloggers thrive on feedback, on knowing that someone out there is listening. so anything that diminishes the likelihood of feedback is a BAD THING."


...I disagree with that reasoning. If anyone can comment, then it becomes Trolls 'R Us. That is what we experienced over at MLBlogs.com, which I'm responsible for in conjunction with Six Apart. Users have to be registered at MLB.com (where I work) to comment. Without that, it would be teeming with trolls as on the Fan Forum message boards. Then it becomes a monitoring quagmire. When they are vested of something -- in that case potentially having their registration terminated -- they almost never become boll weevils of the community. Same here at VOX. I'm glad they have to be invested in some way, have something to lose by being a troll. But having said all this I appreciate the thorough discussion and this is so evolutionary that you have to keep looking at what works now and what works next. Thanks.

my point was : why can't it be up to the individual blogger? if i don't mind risking trolls commenting on my posts, why can't i have that option?

With all due respect, Mr. Newman, thank you for your kind words but I believe you may have missed some of the later points and personal opinions that were raised and that VOX members like Christopher have also echoed, and that's the word "choice," the operative word, choice.

For the record, NO ONE is calling for unfettered access to comment on VOX posts.

Again.

NO ONE is calling for unfettered access to comment on VOX posts.

Apologies for the coming sarcasm, but has everyone read that and understood it now?

What was questioned, Mr. Newman, was why VOX was forcing our visitors to join VOX rather than just trying to better screen out potential trolls through, for example, and as was suggested by Christopher and aine, a wonderful application called TypeKey, developed and owned by SixApart.

And as someone who runs MLB.com's blogging application, I'm sure you are more than aware that some of the most famous political bloggers in this country swear by TypeKey's ability to effectively screen out trolls and other assorted creatures.

The people behind SixApart are exceptionally intelligent and creative but more importantly, they are also very thoughtful people. Certainly with that thoughtfulness a TypeKey approach to filtering and screening comments was initially and immediately considered for VOX just prior to their beta, but for some reason since then and since the official launch, it has not been applied on VOX.

Whatever SixApart's reasons are for demanding VOX membership registration in exchange for the permission to comment on our blogs, well, it's certainly not only for troll protection as some commenters are trying to lead us to believe, especially when you have a software product like TypeKey immediately and most effectively at your disposal.

But demanding VOX membership registration in exchange for the permission to comment on our blogs is also both counter-intuitive and counter-productive and should be given as a choice offered to help a VOX blogger develop his or her own community of relationships, rather than looking like, well, let's just say, insincere.

The solution is simple . . .give our visitors both TypeKey and a membership option, then SixApart and all VOX members will have not just one, but two ways for visitors to make themselves invested and screened.

The decision to make that decision may not be so simple for SixApart.

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